Hub to half shaft weld broken

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PeterSprot
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Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by PeterSprot » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:05 am

I'm stuck in Italy on my way to Malta and after being told by two drivers my wheel is wobbling I decided to take a look. I'm near the end of St Bernard pass (having just gone over it from Switzerland) not far from Aosta.
I can wobble the wheel a quarter of an inch when the car is jacked up. When I removed the spinner oil poured out and I found the welding done by a previous owner had broken away letting the oil come from the differential.

My question is. Should I just get it welded again and hope it holds or have a new shaft sent here and wait as long as it takes and trust local mechanics to do the job. Or give up and have the breakdown insurance bring the car back to England. Advise appreciated. Contact from an English speaking Italian member would be nice as communication is a problem.

A further note to add a few hours later.
I've had a local mechanic help me remove the tight drum to find everything inside coated in oil so I think this could spell the end of our adventure. Still looking forward to any advice
Last edited by PeterSprot on Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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SteveW
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Re: Hub to half sheet weld broken

Post by SteveW » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:41 am

Sorry to hear about the potentially premature end to your adventure. Which bit has broken, when I read your post I thought that you said hub to half shaft, but you actually said sheet? Is it the bit where the hub back plate bolts to the axle or has the end of the axle snapped where the hub nut goes on? The reason for asking is that the half shafts just transmit the power from the diff to the wheels, they don't hold the wheels on, so if one of those had broken the wheel should not start to wobble.

Perhaps its possible to get a new bit sent on to your next destination and get a temporary weld done to get you that far.

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PeterSprot
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Re: Hub to half sheet weld broken

Post by PeterSprot » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:21 am

If you remove the spinner empty the oil and look inside I see the end of a shaft with weld which has come away. I think the oil in the drum must have come from where the four bolts hold the assembly together. I'm saying that because I can't think of any other way for it to get there? I'm open to suggestions.
I'm attaching a picture.

I have not called the breakdown people yet as I want too continue but I don't feel confident doing this job myself.

The mechanic who looked at it said it is not repairable by him it needs a specialist.
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20160625_084354.jpg
Last edited by PeterSprot on Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Clifford Jay Lockrow
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Re: Hub to half sheet weld broken

Post by Clifford Jay Lockrow » Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:08 am

It looks to me that some previous owner has welded the halfshaft (axle) to the hub and now the weld has broken. The oil comes through the splines on the halfshaft into the hub because the halfshaft and hub are both worn which is why you get wobble and the reason for welding it in the first place. I would not want to drive it far with that setup. You need new hubs and halfshafts and recommend the newer type with tapered ends that go into the hub with a nut on the end to hold the two together.. You can even get sealed ones that will hold the oil for sure. You will also need new brake shoes as these are now soaked with gear lube and impossible to get clean. I put this setup on my TC several years ago and have not had a problem since. I used to get oil on the brakes all the time.

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PeterSprot
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by PeterSprot » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:13 am

Thanks for the above post. I'm now understand what must be done.
I now need to decide if I should kick into gear the euro breakdown cover or just go to a local garage here in northern Italy and try to explain then wait.
Do you remember who supplied the parts, was it Moss? Do you have any part numbers.
Regards
Peter

The attached photo was taken at the top of St Bernard pass, I realised the problem at the bottom.
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20160624_155234.jpg

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Steve Simmons
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by Steve Simmons » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:41 am

Beautiful car and scenery!

Oil in the brakes is quite normal when things get a bit worn, so that isn't your worry at the moment. The real problem is that at some point in the car's past, the hub to axle junction, which is a press fit, became loose and rather than replace the two parts, someone tried welding them together. This often results in a less than ideal repair as you have now found.

If finances allow it, at this point I would call Roger Furneaux (in the UK) and get a new set of tapered axles with hubs fitted. These will come with sealed axle nuts so you will hopefully never have a leaking problem again, and the chances of an axle breaking or a hub coming loose will be minimized.

At the very least I would get a good used axle and hub to replace the one you have. It's a 30-minute job to replace and hardly a trip-stopping issue. The brake shoes can be cleaned up in a pinch. Wipe all the oil off and get some brake spray cleaner and a heat gun. Clean the shoes thoroughly using the spray and a rag, then heat the shoes to get more oil to the surface and clean again. Repeat several times. I did this once and the pads became useful again until I finally replaced them, and installed new axles and hubs with sealed nuts. If you don't install sealed nuts, don't bother replacing the brake shoes because they will be covered with oil again shortly!

Good luck!
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dirk w dondorp
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by dirk w dondorp » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:57 am

Steve, and Peter, if I remember well there are quite a numer of mountain roads to be taken in the further course of the trip and even if halfshaft problem is solved I would always prefer new linings, to tackle those mountain roads, if you order new parts anyway to do a local repair job the two brakeshoes are peanuts! Safety first!

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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by Clifford Jay Lockrow » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:32 am

I purchased mine from Bob Grunau in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada but I believe they are available elsewhere. You could get by with a used unit for a bit but after fussing with it for some time before I knew the true solution, I would still go with the new hubs and shafts. Best of luck, beautiful car!

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Richard Michell
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by Richard Michell » Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:06 pm

It is possible that you may have more damage than just a break of the weld that was attaching the half shaft to the hub splines. As Steve W said as the first responder, I don't believe that if that were the only failure the wheel would wobble excessively, provided the spinner was tight. The weld is locating the half shaft in the hub, not attaching the hub. This is done via the big nut inside the hub. Also, the nuts holding the brake drum on load the outer hub onto the outer bearing race (but see below).

Have you removed the brake drum? You could then more readily detect where the movement in the hub is coming from. In assembling the hub it is important that dimensions are such that the inner lip of the outer hub nips the outer bearing race. If there is a gap then the hub (with wheel) can pivot a little under cornering loads and stress the halfshaft plus, in your case, the weld. There is a possibility that this, or a failed bearing, is what broke the weld. The weld is just to locate the shaft in the hub and stop the shaft walking in or out. It should be a tight press fit but wear happens to us all over the years.

The repairs and changes that people are proposing are relatively straightforward overall but require an understanding of what is trying to be achieved to be successful as they are a change in design. My instinct would be to fully diagnose what has failed first and, if it is truly only the weld, have it rewelded by a knowledgeable person and then use shims if necessary to ensure the outer hub nips the bearing on assembly. The shims can be cut from standard shim steel. Or else, trigger the recovery and enjoy the rest of your holiday!

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PeterSprot
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by PeterSprot » Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:13 pm

Thanks for the good advice. I have found Rogers price list and will get the parts to do both sides along with new shoes.
I'm still undecided about using the rescue people to get the ball rolling for me as my insurance will cover cost of freight and our accommodation while we wait. The downside is that I'm at the mercy of whoever they decide to do the job. But it does mean we can continue. I have tomorrow to think it over.
To answer the question of what is moving, the brake back plate is solid, the drum and hub move so when I look inside the hub I see the end of the shaft staying still and the weld along with everything else move.

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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by Clifford Jay Lockrow » Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:32 pm

R. Michell is right. There could be more damage than first seen. There is a bushing pressed into the back axle that the axle shaft runs in that could be damaged as well as the bearing carrier. Be sure to check the bearing carrier and big bearing that no damage has happened. The bearing should be a press fit and I have seen these so worn the bearing can be pushed out with your thumbs. If it is real bad you could have a sleeve made to go back to standard. just take your time and check everything. When all back together there should be no wobble.

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Steve Simmons
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by Steve Simmons » Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:01 pm

Richard offers good advice, but one thing I don't advocate is welding hubs to axles. It's nearly impossible to get it perfectly straight, and if it isn't perfectly straight then it can wear on other items like the bearings. If the bearing hub gets loose on the axle then damage can happen to the axle end as well, which would have to be welded and ground again, or a sleeve fit. This is a more involved repair so hopefully that is not the case. But I agree, a physical inspection is needed to determine exactly where the fault(s) lie.
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Richard Michell
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by Richard Michell » Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:49 pm

Agreed Steve - I was only proposing welding (if that is all that has failed but I doubt it) as the simplest way to get mobile again in Peter's circumstances.

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Gene Gillam
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by Gene Gillam » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:32 am

The bronze bushing in the rear end that the axle slides through before it enters the hub is there more for oil control than axle support...quite often these are worn to nothing before its noticed they're worn. New axles and hubs with clean brake linings should be plenty to let you finish the trip.

http://www.mg-tabc.org/library/rear_axl ... hrower.htm
http://www.mg-tabc.org/library/oil_bushing_removal.htm
Last edited by Gene Gillam on Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Steve Simmons
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by Steve Simmons » Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:57 am

And if you go with new sealed axles and hubs, the bushing is no longer important, or even necessary!
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PeterSprot
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by PeterSprot » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:39 pm

I've decided to correct the breakdown people tomorrow because that is why I have it.
I've translated the following into Italian ready for them.

There is oil in the brake drum and the half shaft is damaged.
Both rear brakes have stopped working so I think there is oil in both brakes.
It needs two new shafts and two new hubs and bearings and new shoes.

I'm saying this because the handbrake was good enough to lock both wheels when I started the trip, now it doesn't work at all. One relevant thing to note is that the last job I did a few days before the start was to change the differential pinion oil seal for a modern one via Moss and fill the diff with oil which although it wasn't empty it needed quite a bit. So I suspect this oil has crept along the shafts and made its way into the drums. That is why I'm going to get them to check both sides and not just the side with the wobble. Anyone can check the blog we are making by clicking on this link
https://findpenguins.com/7s3dgjkegjmro/ ... 1-75241369

Nothing to do with the problem but it was interesting to drive up St Bernard pass to over 8000 ft
The car ran well apart from a plug failing on the way down but I had to do most of the climb in first gear as the five speed gearbox first gear is closer to the standard cars second than it is to first.

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Richard Michell
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by Richard Michell » Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:58 pm

Minor in comparison to your other problems but, when you filled the diff, did you fill it to the bottom of the filler plug hole or to the level of the other plug, located lower on the diff casing? If filled to the fill plug level, oil will be in the axle housings.

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SteveW
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by SteveW » Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:35 pm

Hard to diagnose without seeing it first hand, but it sounds to me like the hub itself has failed somewhere around where the bit that has the thread for the spinner on it meets the flange that bolts to the bearing carrier. This would mean that the wheel is just being held on by the half shaft which is probably now resting on the upper side of the oil thrower (due to the weight of the car pressing the axle down relative the centre line of the wheel) rather than sitting along the centre line of the axle. If I'm right, your were lucky to get down the pass without further incident.

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PeterSprot
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by PeterSprot » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:55 am

I checked my owners manual and could not see any reference to the level plug so I'm fairly sure we put to much in which would have contributed to the problem. Another lesson learnt.

I'm writing this from home having contacted the insurance who were in my opinion far too quick say we will take you and the car home. The policy says you must only use one of their appointed garages for any repair so I left it too them which i now think was another mistake. When the tow truck arrived he asked me where is it going. I phoned the insurance company the spoke to the tow truck man who then phoned a few garages none of which wanted to even look at it so the insurance said it must come home. I do not at this moment have a clue where my car is our when it will return or what other damage may occur during its transportation or as the insurer calls it repatriation. I do know I'm not covered for anything that happens while if the hands of the transporters.
Nevertheless I'm not put off and will have another go at getting to Malta from England. Thanks again took everyone who gave advice.
Peter

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dirk w dondorp
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Re: Hub to half shaft weld broken

Post by dirk w dondorp » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:40 am

BTW Peter, instruction manual for the TC page 16 - top- exactly describes the filling- up procedure of the diff!
But as the eventual over- filling has nothing to do with your breakage, not so important, only oily brakes :-((

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