Cooling System & Head Gasket

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TBrad
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Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by TBrad » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:03 am

After several months of procrastination and lack of time I finally got to work on the TC in an effort to replace the suspected bad starter. The starter replacement came about because it failed during multiple attempts to do some compression checks. The compression checks were driven by the car developing an oil leak that manifested itself during a long drive at the end of last season. The engine also seems a bit down on power. Along with that effort I decide I may as well do some spring-cleaning and change the oil, coolant, etc. The oil came out as black as soot, not really too surprising and the coolant came out looking none to bad. I really have no idea when either were last changed before I purchased the car almost a year ago. The plan included changing the cooling system hoses because the clamps, in most cases, were very corroded looking and even though the hoses looked okay, I knew they must have been on there for some time as they were as hard as a rock.

However, in a truly senior moment, I refilled the radiator with a gallon of coolant (the green stuff) and topped it off with distilled water before replacing the hoses. I realized this after walking back to my workbench feeling rather chuffed only to see the box of replacement hoses and clamps sitting front and center. Back to the car and this time, I thought, I could just drain the fluid into a clean pan and reuse it. Sadly, when I drained it out it looked rather brown and very dirty. I don’t know if the brown was from some oil in the system or just corrosion. I did notice a very few spots of what could be oil in the pan, but not a lot. I then poured two more gallons of distilled water through the system and it too came out rather dirty. I was now out of distilled water, so I just hooked the hose pipe to the filler neck and kept running water through until it came out clear. I don’t like using our tap water because it is very hard water and will leave scale over a period of time, but at this juncture I didn’t see any choice, and yes I did capture all the draining water, eventually filling up six, 2-gallon kitty litter jugs in the process.

I then started in on the hoses. Most came off okay, but three needed to be cut with my Dremel tool as they were so corroded I could not get the screws to turn even after being soaked in Liquid Wrench overnight. Then came the next conundrum. Looking at the thermostat housing it appears as if whoever worked on this area before repainted the top of the thermostat (red) when they repainted the engine. I’m not talking about the housing, but the top of the actual thermostat itself. I can push down on the thermostat, but now I wondering if I need to replace it? I’m pretty sure this one is the non-replaceable type and thus I need to order the housing. Or, should I purchase the “new” type with a replaceable thermostat?

In any event, I’m still not sure if there is a deeper problem in that the head gasket may be “blown.” I did not notice any overheating during the last run, but oil spewed on the right side of the engine cowling was a bit disconcerting. Is it just the valve cover? Maybe it just came out of the oil bath air cleaner? I can’t really tell. The valve cover gasket will be replaced as a matter of course. Plugs, points & condenser will be replaced as well in hopes that will cure to down on power feeling. If I do the head gasket, should I go ahead and order new head studs and bolt on the chance the studs may be stretched? Should I take it to someone smarter than me to confirm the head is not warped? I was hoping to get the car back in commission for a photo shoot by a local magazine next Wednesday, but with an impending weekend getaway and parts lead time it is beginning to look less and less likely. Who knows what horrors lurk underneath when I pull the head? Or… should I just ignore the head gasket for now and take my chances by slapping it all back together and see what happens?

Cheers!
Brad
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there!
- Brad P.

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stephen stierman
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by stephen stierman » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:36 am

I don't entrust my cars to anyone but me working on them for obvious reasons. Take one thing at a time.....
If the car has not been overheating it doesn't matter if some red paint got on the thermostat. It is likely working ok and I would fill the thing up with water and drive it a bit to determine if the oil leak is indeed coming from the valve cover. Don't worry about non distilled water, the car is 70 years old, it has had been filled with plenty of water from the garden hose over the years. Clean the oil off around the engine, drive the car, make sure it is not overheating and see if you can determine if any additional oil shows up just where it is coming from, I suspect it is the valve cover. As far as rusty coolant, not at all unusual and can be flushed and reflushed several times to ultimately clean it out. By the way, unless your car has a TD air filter, it does not have an oil bath air filter.

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frenchblatter
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by frenchblatter » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:25 am

You can buy a phosphate to mix with the coolant and leave for 24 hours and then flush with a running hose. Best not let the phosphate run into the ground as it's harmful.

Other than that do as Stephen says.
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by Tom Lange, MGT Repair » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:31 am

Steve gives good advice - take it one step at a time. Do the hoses, then drive it. If there is an overheating issue then, fix it with a new water pump, a flushed/repaired radiator, a flushed block, and/or a new thermostat housing. Yes, get the replaceable type, as they are far and away the best. As for down on power, get/do a complete tune-up, do the usual compression and leak-down tests, and see where the issue is. A blown head gasket will make itself clear, and can be addressed at that time, with the related upgrades like new studs, a complete valve job with new springs, guides, seats, etc. But remember that a tired engine is tired all over, not just at the head. You will do yourself no favors by fixing the head when you have worn bearings and bores, for instance. You will actually be more likely to blow the engine by fixing only one area of concern, if there is general wear all over.

But really, don't worry about that yet. As for oil leaks, the valve cover and side cover are the most likely culprits (as Steve has noted), and they can be fairly easily fixed with some care and effort. I don't mean to toot my own horn, but the gaskets I sell are pretty much guaranteed to fix such leaks (and the other products I sell are pretty good, too...). See mgtrepair.net for details.

Bravo for asking questions; we are all happy to help. Please also write me off-line.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair

Tom Lange, MGT Repair
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by Tom Lange, MGT Repair » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:33 am

PS - any reputable gen/starter shop can re-do your TC starter for much less money than buying another one.

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frenchblatter
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by frenchblatter » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:49 am

You can buy a phosphate to mix with the coolant and leave for 24 hours and then flush with a running hose. Best not let the phosphate run into the ground as it's harmful.

Other than that do as Stephen says.
Lynne & Norman Verona.

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Duncan M
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by Duncan M » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:07 pm

Brad-
If you are having overheating issues, keep in mind the XPAG has an entirely mechanical (springs only) distributor timing advance mechanism. If allowed to age with the car, these springs tend to get stiff from age, which results in retarded (not advancing enough) timing. The mechanism needs oiling for smooth operation. Your base timing (idle timing) could simply be off, too.

Before you replace the water pump and radiator and head gasket, you should get a timing light and check base timing and the advance curve, after you check points gap. Timing/advance might seem distant from overheating, but it is often the entire cause. Most T-Type enthusiasts will suggest 5-10 degrees more advance than the original workshop manual suggests.
Last edited by Duncan M on Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tom Lange, MGT Repair
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by Tom Lange, MGT Repair » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:26 am

In fact, I recommend a rebuild of almost every distributor by Jeff Schlemmer of Advanced Distributor, who re-sets the advance curves appropriately, which cures many overheating issues.

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TBrad
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by TBrad » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:46 am

Thank you everyone for all the great advice. Because of the level of deterioration of the thermostat housing and the branch pipe I elected to replace all the bits, including the water pump. Unfortunately, I haven’t quite figured out how to post pictures here, but if you saw the condition of these pieces you would agree they were well past their sell by dates. I took the radiator to a local shop for refurbishment and now I’m just waiting for the rest of the parts to arrive.
In the meantime, with the radiator shell off, I was a bit surprised to find how bodged up the slats are. In one place it was actually held together with safety wire. A lot of the slat ends are broken and several don’t properly line up because the were reattached poorly with shoddy riveting. It may behoove me to order a new one as this grill is in pretty poor shape, but then I will have to find the correct paint color for the slats. One of the mounting studs on the shell was missing as well. I did my best to solder a new one in place; however, it seems my soldering skills leave much to be desired. I’ll revisit that tomorrow and see if I can get it to look a bit more professional.
I did install a new valve cover gasket and retorqued the head bolts. Most were okay, but three on the front needed a bit more turning to be properly secure. Hopefully these steps will stem the leaks. I’m cleaning the engine as I go so any future source should be more obvious.
I finally did get all the brackets for the starter clutch return and throttle return springs and with the starter repainted it will be going back in tomorrow. I may not have mentioned that before, but both brackets for the return springs were missing from the starter and the springs were bodged to the frame. Go figure.
The new exhaust system will follow and then reassembly of the cooling system along with a basic tune up and and #0777 should be ready for the season.
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TBrad
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by TBrad » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:47 am

Tom Lange, MGT Repair wrote:In fact, I recommend a rebuild of almost every distributor by Jeff Schlemmer of Advanced Distributor, who re-sets the advance curves appropriately, which cures many overheating issues.
I will certainly check that out Tom. Thanks.
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there!
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TBrad
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by TBrad » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:58 am

Duncan M wrote:Brad-
If you are having overheating issues, keep in mind the XPAG has an entirely mechanical (springs only) distributor timing advance mechanism. If allowed to age with the car, these springs tend to get stiff from age, which results in retarded (not advancing enough) timing. The mechanism needs oiling for smooth operation. Your base timing (idle timing) could simply be off, too.

Before you replace the water pump and radiator and head gasket, you should get a timing light and check base timing and the advance curve, after you check points gap. Timing/advance might seem distant from overheating, but it is often the entire cause. Most T-Type enthusiasts will suggest 5-10 degrees more advance than the original workshop manual suggests.
Duncan - The car hasn’t actually been overheating. I discovered the poor condition of the cooling system when I changed the coolant as a matter of course. I was going to change all the hoses anyway as they were stiff and had seen better days. Those simple steps revealed hidden horrors and a lot of bodged work, from grill slats to missing radiator hardware and a level of corrosion I was not expecting. The thermostat was non-functional. I elected to replace all the replaceable bits, including the water pump prophylacticly for peace of mind, if for no other reason. I will certainly check the timing and advance when I do the tune up after the car is back together. Thanks for the help and advice.
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there!
- Brad P.

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TBrad
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by TBrad » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:30 am

I bit the bullet and ordered a new grill from FTFU this morning. Although I’m a little bit under the weather I had full intention of getting the damn starter in today; however the clutch return bracket I got from Moss needed its mounting hole enlarged in order to get the starter mounting bolt through. That encompassed drilling and repainting the bracket. Since I had the paint out I decided to touch up the starter inspection band as well. The starter lives alone for yet another day. Doug Pelton (FTFU) sent me some excellent pictures of the clutch return spring setup, one that shows I should have two nuts were I only have one (on the clutch adjustment rod). ; o

Stymied in my planned course of action I instead pulled the water pump off in preparation for its impending replacement, which just so happened to come today along with all the other cooling system items. I vow; however, that will do no more to the cooling system until the starter and exhaust are installed. Only then will I clean the front of the engine, which is, in a word, filthy, and get on with the job.

I had no problem getting the water pump out, except for the usual Foolish Mechanic forgetfulness to put a white sheet, towel or paper under the car just in case, let’s say, the castellated nut or woodruff key were to slip through my Nitrille encased fingers. Which they did. Finding the nut was the easy part. I all but gave up on the key when I stepped away from the car and felt something in my moccasin. Assuming it was just some debris, I took it off and shook it. Out dropped the woodruff key.

As they say, if I had to be good or lucky, I’d rather be lucky.

In retrospect I am glad I decided to replace the pump prophylacticly as the one I removed, which was certainly not original, had seen better days. Of course all the new bits and bobs need painting, but the weather around here is not going to be very warm anytime soon. I do loathe having to do it in the house, although I have done in the past.

I was interested to find studs on the left side (facing) the water pump and bolt bolts on the right side (aircraft left) holding the pump in place. The Moss catalog sows one size stud and one size bolt, but the workshop manual shows long and short studs/washers with the long stud bottom left and long bolt top tight. Curious that.
I have a new fastener set from FTFU, but have not opened it yet to compare sizes.

So here are two questions for you beautiful and brilliant people...

1. What, if any torque setting would you use to tighten the above mentioned nuts (studs) and bolts.

2. Should I apply Loctite, antisieze or none of the above?
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Duncan M
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by Duncan M » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:58 pm

Use antiseize with original type hardware.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Permatex-1-2 ... t/20056284
If I am not mistaken the water pump fasteners use split lock washers. Despite the persistent myth of split lock washers being useless, they actually work exceptionally well if they are made of the correct materials and in good shape and properly matched.

Were split lock washers included in the hardware you mentioned? General rule for low torque things like a water pump is to tighten until the split lock washer goes flat. No more tight, no less tight. Be sure and also antiseize the fastener threads that hold on the cooling fan.

Do yourself a favor and get some Hylomar (universal blue) or Permatex 85420 for the paper water pump gasket. Dress both sides. You will use a lot of antiseize and "hylomar" on this car.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hylomar-Univer ... MX&vxp=mtr

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Permatex-85420 ... SwY~laJiwv

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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by Tom Lange, MGT Repair » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:07 pm

Brad - don't be surprised if the new valve cover leaks; the cork kind tend to.

But also, don't be surprised if the head studs you tightened down are bad. Often, when old head studs need tightening, they are actually stretching, resulting in very uneven torque. So blown head gaskets can and do happen under those circumstances.

You might find it worthwhile to look at my web-page: mgtrepair.net, where I have a few pretty good products for T-series cars.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair

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TBrad
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by TBrad » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:14 pm

Duncan M wrote:Use antiseize with original type hardware.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Permatex-1-2 ... t/20056284
If I am not mistaken the water pump fasteners use split lock washers. Despite the persistent myth of split lock washers being useless, they actually work exceptionally well if they are made of the correct materials and in good shape and properly matched.

Were split lock washers included in the hardware you mentioned? General rule for low torque things like a water pump is to tighten until the split lock washer goes flat. No more tight, no less tight. Be sure and also antiseize the fastener threads that hold on the cooling fan.

Do yourself a favor and get some Hylomar (universal blue) or Permatex 85420 for the paper water pump gasket. Dress both sides. You will use a lot of antiseize and "hylomar" on this car.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hylomar-Univer ... MX&vxp=mtr

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Permatex-85420 ... SwY~laJiwv
Everything I’ve pulled off has had split lock washers bar the pully castellated nut, which was a cotter pin.

Thanks for the recommendation about Hylomar. I was considering whether or not to use a sealant with the gaskets.
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there!
- Brad P.

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TBrad
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Re: Cooling System & Head Gasket

Post by TBrad » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:28 pm

Tom Lange, MGT Repair wrote:Brad - don't be surprised if the new valve cover leaks; the cork kind tend to.

But also, don't be surprised if the head studs you tightened down are bad. Often, when old head studs need tightening, they are actually stretching, resulting in very uneven torque. So blown head gaskets can and do happen under those circumstances.

You might find it worthwhile to look at my web-page: mgtrepair.net, where I have a few pretty good products for T-series cars.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
Thanks Tom. I used a silicone gasket from Doug P. You are probably right about the head studs, but’s that’s a job for another day (like next winter when I pull the engine for a proper rebuild). I think it will survive as is for this season. I’ll give you a call when I need the new studs and maybe a new diff, although mine isn’t problematic at the moment.

I think this car had a very nice restoration a number of years ago (1980’s), but the most recent caretakers either did not do much or left it to questionable “professionals” to sort out their problems. I find a lot of stuff done incorrectly, which could have just as easily been done the right way if then person doing the job would have bothered to research how it was supposed to be done. I’m not complaining mind you. I’m having a hell of a lot of fun sorting it out, despite the f-ing and blinding you may hear resonating from my garage.
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there!
- Brad P.

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