Moss seats for TC

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antijam
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Moss seats for TC

Post by antijam » Wed May 30, 2018 6:41 am

I'm preparing to buy fully trimmed seat assemblies for my TC restoration. Moss supply them in a 'Honey tan' which is a non-standard colour, but which complements my non-standard paint finish. The original seats came in 'early' and 'late' types, differing in the extent to which the fluting covers the seat back - early ones had fluting from top to bottom. late ones had the fluting stop 3" from the bottom to allow a neater fit with the cushion.

Unfortunately no-one at Moss in the UK can confirm which version they sell, and I wonder if anyone who has experience of the Moss seats can confirm the type?.. Also any comments, positive or negative, on the quality of the Moss trim would be welcome.

Tom Lange, MGT Repair
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by Tom Lange, MGT Repair » Wed May 30, 2018 9:37 am

My GUESS is that they sell the late type, to most easily match what they sell for the TD.

I have no first-hand experience, but have read in various posts that the leather is substantially better in kits from other makers, since the Moss leather begins to break down and show wear after just a few years of average use.

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Duncan M
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by Duncan M » Thu May 31, 2018 3:01 pm

Not too well known is that late production TC's started using a different green color for interior at some point in '49 production. The "other" green has more yellow in the blue/yellow color mix, and is quite vibrant. It is the same green that was used in early TD interiors (through '51?) Some think it a TD green, but actually was a transition green. Not sure what the later TD green was, probably same as earlier TC. Link below seems to back up the idea of different greens for late '49.


http://www.mg-tabc.org/special-files/mg ... s-v2.1.pdf
Last edited by Duncan M on Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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stephen stierman
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by stephen stierman » Thu May 31, 2018 4:26 pm

Tom, I put a Moss kit in TC2911 when I restored the car many years ago. Vehicle now in use for a good dozen years and almost 17,000 miles and the seats look just fine with some leather patina as expected.

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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by Tom Lange, MGT Repair » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:44 am

As I wrote, I am just repeating what I have heard. Does it seem logical that the quality and availability of more recent leather is not as good as older leather?

I am perfectly ready to stand corrected, and appreciate all observations.

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Tom Wilson
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by Tom Wilson » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:58 am

Simple answer is Moss TC seats are the late type. They will serve you adequately if attention to detail and high quality aren’t your prime considerations. If you are at MG Live at Silverstone this weekend, chase me down. I can be found through the T Register or MMM stands.

The longer answer from Kimber Creek Ltd. (me), specializing in making interiors and weather equipment for MMM and T cars. I took over where Mike Collingburn left off. This is a long post about this well worth reading:

All of Moss’ upholstery is made in their sewing shop in their Virginia sewing rooms. Quality isn’t what it used to be, and could be considered average repro; certainly not concourse level. It’s made to a production price, and isn’t bad for their sale price. One can buy much better quality from me at close to their standard prices.

Moss has only one type of TC seats, modeled on the later version. There were actually 3 steps in the TC seats: early back/bottom, late back/early bottom, and late back/ bottom. Notes aren’t handy to tell you chassis numbers, but it was during 1946.

The late back has the seat spring case and pleated upholstery end about 2” above the bottom of the backer board. The late seat bottom has a different shape wood base (to fit more snugly against the wheel well), different breather hole shapes, and originally a different inside cushion (Dunlopillo brand). If you are a tall person (say, over 5’9”) you will appreciate the late seat set as you drive.

Moss uses a good quality leather and vinyl, though not great. Colors aren’t a good match to original, and the hidem trim on the interior panels hidem is thicker than original, giving it a chunky look. That’s due to the thickness of vinyl; it technically can’t be formed to a thinner hidem.
Moss uses foam sewn as a flat pleat process instead of individually stuffed pleats. That, together with their chosen materials, gives a “repro” look rather than the more dimensional and interesting original look of the MG seats.

Duncan, you are wrong about the green. MG used the exact same green leather shade on leather (From Connolly) from 1932 all the way through TD production. They did use different names for it. I’ve worked with Connolly Brothers reproducing the correct colors, and we did extensive research that confirms this. Leather and the leathercloth (Rexine) colors shift in tone over the years, and each color and material has a different direction they shift. I’ve studied this for years, and with this info and the work with Connolly have reproduced as close to original colors, textures, and thicknesses as I believe possible.

If you want to match original details and colors for your interior and weather equipment, Kimber Creek is the place to go. You can get a complete interior kit with all the little extras for just a bit more than a Moss kit. Plus we can verify panel fit to your car before making yours. Carpets, tonneaus, hoods and side curtains available as well, all sharper than brand “M”.

Kimber Creek hasn’t launched its website nor hung out the “open for business”shingle yet, though we’re doing business -a lot of it. Right now, orders include interiors for M midgets, D, J2, PAs, TAs, several TCs, and a couple TFs. That’s just the next few months!

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stephen stierman
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by stephen stierman » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:53 am

I need to take exception , the pleats on my seats are properly sewn and do not look like a "flat pleat". I don't know anything about quality "not being what it used to be" as I bought this kit some years ago. I can also tell you that availability at that time from Collingburn was well out there. As to color comparisons to seventy year old leather, I surely would like to see what that is, but I don't have any seventy year old unadulterated leather to compare with, nor probably do the concours judges. I don't work for Moss, but if anyone wants any photos, of an often sat on seat, I can provide and you can tell me how bad it is...……. :?

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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by frenchblatter » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:17 pm

I have Tom Wilsons interior except for the seats. I tried to salvage the originals but it turned out they were too far gone.

I bought a set of seat covers from NTG. I've no idea were they get them from but I don't think they're Moss as the other stuff they supply from Moss has Moss bin labels on.

I would put a pound to a penny that Tom is correct. The colour of NTG covers was wrong. Only a shade out but it showed (pictures on my blog).

I sent a swatch of Tom's interior to Gliptone and they supplied the correct shade of red. I applied it and it's now perfect.

If you look at 2nd April on - http://www.lotus7news.co.uk/db_04_18.htm you'll see the colour difference and the finished article a bit further on (15th).
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Duncan M
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by Duncan M » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:24 pm

Tom W, it is entirely possible that almost every green T type seat I have ever seen in person was simply a poor reproduction color match. TC's like mine with original interior in good shape to compare, are rare as hens teeth. From what you say, the far more likely explanation is that the green color gradually changed from the stodgy green in early TC's to the vibrant (more yellow) in the very late TC's -- that carried over into the TD's. As you say, the names assigned to the green leather (green, apple green, shires green) might all have the same Connolly color code, or the name changes may be to account for the color change over time. When mixing colors to code, certain base colors are used. If the base colors change over time, the resulting mixed color will also change.

For some idea of what I am talking about, if you go to http://www.wmmcollingburn.com home page and note the top green seat shown (very top--next to their name) and compare that to the green seat beneath it, you will get an idea of the color difference I am talking about. The seat color I see on my computer screen on the lower green seat is about what I most always see in person on T's. The color I see up on top is quite close to my known original (very late TC) green leather.
Last edited by Duncan M on Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

frenchblatter
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by frenchblatter » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:41 am

Duncan, I'd say it's the same picture and the difference in colour is the reduction in size more than a real difference.
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Steve Simmons
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by Steve Simmons » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:03 am

Tom's products are second to none, and if I was restoring a show car I would not hesitate to buy from him. His attention to detail, originality and workmanship are top notch. That said, I have Moss leather in three other MGs (MGA, MGB, MGC) and a Moss vinyl kit in a third and all are great quality for the price. The leather has held up well, the only issue so far is a bit of wear in the MGA at the edges of the seats after about 30K miles, from getting in and out and from the seat belts rubbing.

While I like to do things the correct way and make my TC better with each repair, it's still a driver and sees a lot of miles in all weather. So when Moss had a sale a while back which dropped the price on their leather kits significantly, I decided to buy a kit to replace the horrible vinyl a previous owner had installed. The leather went in fine, no real complaints. The quality seems good although admittedly not as good as Tom's would be. But I do like that I can worry less about damaging it, and I'm not sure Tom sells black leather anyway. Yes I know it isn't original but neither is the paint color and I wanted to match the rest of the interior parts. And more importantly my wife likes the color combo and one must keep the spousal unit happy. ;)

For reference, here's my kit. The seat wasn't bolted in yet so it may not be sitting quite right, and please ignore the horrible carpet which has since been replaced. The door cards are probably the Moss type that Tom mentioned that are too thick. Like the rest of the interior, they were installed by the previous owner. Also worth noting that the seat foams are the original Dunlopillow in surprisingly good shape. The rear cover you see is also a Moss item from 15 years ago. The quality was decent and it's still in one piece.
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1949 TC8975 / XPAG 9609
1949 TC9849 EXU / XPAG 10507
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Duncan M
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by Duncan M » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:09 am

frenchblatter wrote:Duncan, I'd say it's the same picture and the difference in colour is the reduction in size more than a real difference.
Norman, you missed the point.

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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by frenchblatter » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:50 am

Having read it again, I'm still missing the point :)
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Duncan M
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by Duncan M » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:52 pm

That's fine Norman, I don't mind explaining again. Reason for the link to Collingburn home page was to show the two distinct shades of green I was talking about. Nothing in the least to do with Tom Wilson buying interest in Collingburn, and nothing to do with actual colors anybody might be offering. Point only to show two distinctly different colors. The Collingburn home page just so happened to give a good example of those two shades of green I was talking about. Simple as that. Why, did you think there was more to it?

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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by frenchblatter » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:48 pm

Duncan, U understood that but I think it's the same picture and the differenece in shade is from the reproduction process. The picture lower down is a crop of the top picture... I think.
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SteveW
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by SteveW » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:29 am

Hi Norman,

I think that I agree with you. If you look at the shadows and where the light falls on the two images, its identical, suggesting that they are the same image but processed differently.

By the way, has anyone tried to restore an old set of leather seat covers. I was at a car show the other day and someone was selling recolor and restoration kits for seats. Based on the before and after seats that he had on show, it looked really good, but I guess that his display examples would. He said that he could match any colour and invisibly repair all but the most serious of rips and tears. If the kits work, I am leaning towards this approach because I'm not doing a concourse restoration and a perfect set of new seats without wrinkles etc might look a little odd.

If anyone in the UK has a set of covers that they no longer want that may be amenable to restoration, please let me know.

Steve

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stephen stierman
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by stephen stierman » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:05 am

Actually Norman tried to restore his seats and they didn't look too bad, but ultimately decided to replace. If you follow his blog, there are pictures of the work. All just depends upon how bad the seats are to start with.

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Duncan M
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by Duncan M » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:22 am

Norman and SteveW you seem to display a form of red/green color blindness.

https://nei.nih.gov/health/color_blindness/facts_about

https://enchroma.com/pages/test

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Steve Simmons
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by Steve Simmons » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:01 am

With due respect, and as someone who spends a lot of time in Photoshop, I can say with certainty that the image of the seat in the Collingburn header has been manipulated. Saturation has been boosted and levels raised. They started out as the same image. Even the lighting glare and lens flares are in the exact same place. I'm not saying there weren't two different greens, just that the upper one is not the natural color of the seat they photographed.

I took the color test for fun. And I started to panic when I couldn't find the number in one of the images. About 20 seconds later I realized there's an option for "none". :oops:
1949 TC8975 / XPAG 9609
1949 TC9849 EXU / XPAG 10507
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Duncan M
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Re: Moss seats for TC

Post by Duncan M » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:49 am

Well Steve at least you can see the two separate greens I was talking about. Who cares if it is the same picture that was altered? If anyone cannot see the additional yellow in the top pic, then they are color blind. Something like 8% of men have some sort of color blind. What this all boils down to has already been said: "When mixing colors to code, certain base colors are used. If the base colors change over time, the resulting mixed color will also change. " i.e. same code = different color.

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