TC Brass Engine Tags

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TBrad
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TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by TBrad » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:39 pm

Are all TC brass engine tags the same? I have a very early TC that has a brass engine tag, but it does not sport the round center stamped with TYPE XPAG. I've also seen tags that are stamped +TYPE- XPAG TC.
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IMG_0508 (1).jpg
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Tom Wilson
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by Tom Wilson » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:00 pm

Factory photos I have (mine are all very high res digital copies of glass negatives) that the engine tag shows in all have the same type of octagonal tag with the round tag dot added in the center.
These photos include the first TC (TC0251), a photo of Reg Toplish preparing an engine to install into a chassis at the engine station on the chassis track (spring 1946), and a couple photos of engines before installation in late 1948.

Probably enough evidence there to say there was only one way they were done.

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TBrad
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by TBrad » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:22 pm

Thanks Tom. That pretty much confirms my suspicion that this tag was initially on a different engine block. I’d love to see those pictures.
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Tom Lange, MGT Repair
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by Tom Lange, MGT Repair » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:27 am

Brad - I'm not sure I follow your thinking. The inference I draw from your engine is that it has been rebuilt in the past, when the tags were removed before cleaning. The center TYPE XPAG ring could very easily have been lost when the rivet was removed.

There is no evidence that your tag was ever on another engine - it simply can't be proven. I've seen TC engines where the block number was also stamped above the brass octagon, but it doesn't appear that yours was. (If that engine tag reads 1386, you have TC0777?).

Tom Lange
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TBrad
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by TBrad » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:29 am

You know Tom, I didn't think of that possibility. So many items have been replaced on this car, some with TD parts, when I realized the round XPAG tag was missing I simply assumed the engine was swapped at one point and the tag transferred. I think I like your version better. ; )

Yes, the car is TC0777. At least that is what the chassis tag indicates.
IMG_0507.jpg
BTW, if anyone knows any history of this car I would be grateful to know more. It came out of Greer, NC about 8 years ago when it was purchased by a gentleman in PA. I was told it was restored in the UK sometime in the '80s, but I have no records to support that or showing when it was imported into the USA.
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there!
- Brad P.

TD/C21325
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Tom Lange, MGT Repair
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by Tom Lange, MGT Repair » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:17 am

I not only like my suggestion better, I think it is the right one. I see absolutely no evidence that your engine has been swapped, and if I were you I would be confident that you have the original engine.

I might suggest that you get in touch with Doug Pelton at FTFU, and see if he has an original ". TYPE . XPAG" ring available (and a rivet), for you to install the next time your engine comes out. There are reproductions available on eBay from Australia but they aren't correct. Doug may well have a trashed engine from which he extracted an original ring, or he may have a better reproduction that you can appropriately age.

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Steve Simmons
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by Steve Simmons » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:25 am

The rivet doesn't look original either. I'd agree that it was removed when the block was hot dipped.
1949 TC8975 / XPAG 9609
1949 TC9849 EXU / XPAG 10507
http://www.mgnuts.com

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Duncan M
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by Duncan M » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:14 pm

Octagon tag sure has a lot of patina. Hard to imagine how a tag on the side of the engine would get worn down like that unless it and the engine were dipped in acid. For chassis number why not check the left dumb iron where it will have been stamped? The chassis number for each car is located on the front left outside rail of the chassis between the shock and the front cross member bolt. The number will have been hand stamped into the rail. Should be stamped "TC 0777" or maybe TC777.

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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by Steve Simmons » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:46 pm

When I got my car, the main wiring harness was sitting on the brass tag. Thankfully the previous owner barely drove the car so it wasn't heavily worn.
1949 TC8975 / XPAG 9609
1949 TC9849 EXU / XPAG 10507
http://www.mgnuts.com

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TBrad
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by TBrad » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:53 pm

Duncan,

Thanks for reply, but I’m not questioning the chassis number, I just wanted clarification of the different types of engine plates. As I said previously, I’ve seen the round center plate with TYPE XPAG and TYPE XPAG TC, but mine has neither so I was looking for clarification.

Tom,

Thanks. Doug does have the roundel and rivet, so I’ll get one from him when I place my next order.
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there!
- Brad P.

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Mark Strang
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by Mark Strang » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:56 pm

Brad,
I have just realized I have one on an old block. Stop by and we'll take it off and you can have it. I agree with the above comments. I think your engine is unique to your car. Mark

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TBrad
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by TBrad » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:03 pm

Thanks Mark. I’ll be in touch when I get back from the OBX.
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there!
- Brad P.

TD/C21325
TC0777

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Duncan M
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by Duncan M » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:10 pm

Check the engine production date code, which is a few inches above the dipstick hole. First number(s) is month, and then D indicates 4th decade of 20th century, last number is the year specific to 4th decade. ie D 9 = 1949. My TC was made in October '49 and the engine was made a couple months before in August 1949. 8 D 9
DSC07112.JPG

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TBrad
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by TBrad » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:45 am

Duncan M wrote:Check the engine production date code, which is a few inches above the dipstick hole. First number(s) is month, and then D indicates 4th decade of 20th century, last number is the year specific to 4th decade. ie D 9 = 1949. My TC was made in October '49 and the engine was made a couple months before in August 1949. 8 D 9
DSC07112.JPG
Thanks Duncan. I did not know that. They say you learn something new everyday, so I’m good now until tomorrow.
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there!
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Tom Lange, MGT Repair
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by Tom Lange, MGT Repair » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:52 am

Duncan - why would they include both quarter AND month information? Seems to me that if you know it was made in August, then knowing it was made in the 4th quarter is no help?

Do we have a larger confirmed sampling to be sure it even is a date code? I remember a discussion where a number of inconsistencies and impossibilities suggested it was not a date code - but that might have been on TD cars, I don't remember.

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Steve Simmons
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by Steve Simmons » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:00 am

I'm not so sure that's a date code. If it is, then mine doesn't make any sense. The car is July '49.
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block-stamping.jpg
block-stamping.jpg (48.13 KiB) Viewed 1615 times
1949 TC8975 / XPAG 9609
1949 TC9849 EXU / XPAG 10507
http://www.mgnuts.com

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Duncan M
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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by Duncan M » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:38 am

Tom, not sure what you are saying about 4th quarter? D is 4th letter of alphabet and 1940 begins the 4th decade of the 20th century. I have no idea how Nuffield or BMC may have done things on their TD or TF blocks.

It is just a Morris quality control foundry date code. Similar to how certain other parts have a manufacture date on them. I'm sure there might be a few TC's with actual original engines that have an engine made 6 months earlier, or even same month as the car. I thought this (date code) was fairly common knowledge, and it is printed somewhere in a book or article where I have read it. This discussion comes up from time to time on the yahoo board, and it always ends with people saying that so few TC's have the original engine it does not effect value and is irrelevant and OP.

Steve, it looks like 6D and then gibberish? Gibberish happens. June, 194X? Engine cast in a month before car made?

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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by djw » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:19 pm

The MGCC T Register has done some work on T Type engine block date castings, including the date coding used, and you can find our conclusions at
https://www.mgcc.co.uk/t-register/regis ... stingdates
Using this code, Duncan M's block is dated as 8 April 1949 and Steve Simmons' (if the photo is indeed upside down) as 17 March 1949.
There is another article on the other block and head casting numbers and logos at
https://www.mgcc.co.uk/t-register/wp-co ... ers-v8.pdf.
Note the caveats at the end of the date coding document and we'd be interesting in seeing pictures of any variations.
David

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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by Steve Simmons » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:19 pm

It looks like a D in that first photo but it actually isn't. It appears to be either a backwards C or a zero missing a bit.

The photo isn't upside down! But assuming the letters were cast upside down then it would read 17 C9 which makes sense by David's research.

An upside down casting wouldn't surprise me, since one water elbow hole is also drilled out of position. I have to grind out the water elbow hole to get one to fit my block. Maybe my block was the last one cast on a Friday evening? The beer was probably running out by then.

Here's a better photo. Sorry for the dirt, I haven't cleaned it since our last tour.
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stamping2.jpg
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1949 TC8975 / XPAG 9609
1949 TC9849 EXU / XPAG 10507
http://www.mgnuts.com

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Re: TC Brass Engine Tags

Post by djw » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:38 pm

Steve, from what we've seen previously, it wouldn't in the least surprise me if the code was stamped upside down.

David

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