After what started out as replacing Hinge and Latch Pillars has progressed to what will probably be a complete tub build and as such I've been following Rob Reilly's TA build with more than a passing interest.
I started posting a build/rebuild thread in The MG Experience Forum but wasn't getting much feedback. If anyone is terribly bored, here's a link to those pages.
https://www.mgexp.com/forum/t-series-an ... l.4743478/
It was interesting that in the first book [TC's Forever] Sherrill leans toward "all original, all the time" but in the second book, [TC's Forever More] he speaks to a number of modifications, mostly for strength and to increase longevity of the restoration.
One item was the modification to the rear tub frame. The frame ends on each side at the backboard with only the plywood supporting the rear of the frame and tub. The drawing in the book was a bit small but good enough.
After what seemed like days of measuring and leveling I got started. I initially had the backboard in place to insure I maintained the correct angle of the back, then worked without the board. I ended up using a portable-power to spread the rear of the frame slightly to get the correct distance.
I think That's probably the most important thing, to maintain the angle and to keep everything square and level. After all this is the basis of the tub build.
The rest was just fiddling with measurements and cutting the metal, 1" x1/8" angle, being extra careful to make sure the cuts are square, then some tacking, then final welding.
The original plates on the ends that bolt to the backboard were welded on a little haphazardly, [crooked and a sloppy weld] so I cut them off and made new plates.
The short pieces of angle that bolt to the existing frame holes needed to be heated and spread to a bit more than 90 degrees to match the level portion of the existing frame and to maintain the slope/angle of the back board.
Seems like it went well and really ties the frame together nicely, as well as taking a load off the backboard. The only real downside is the compartment sides will need to be modified to fit.
Next it appears is tub construction.
robj
P.S. Is there a secret to posting photos inline? If so, please clue me in!
TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification and Tub Build
TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification and Tub Build
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Last edited by robj on Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:56 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Rob Reilly
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Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification
<P.S. Is there a secret to posting photos inline? If so, please clue me in!>
After you have used the Attachments button to add a file, then return to the main window and click on the place where you want the picture to appear, for example after a line of text. Your cursor should wink there.
Then go down to the picture file name and click Place Inline. The file name will appear after your text, where your cursor was winking before.
I have gotten bogged down with my TA tub construction. I'm using original TA doors that are in good condition, but not original to this car, although that may not be relevant to the work. My doors fit before I put on the front cross timber, and now they don't. One step forward and two steps back, yet again.
After you have used the Attachments button to add a file, then return to the main window and click on the place where you want the picture to appear, for example after a line of text. Your cursor should wink there.
Then go down to the picture file name and click Place Inline. The file name will appear after your text, where your cursor was winking before.
I have gotten bogged down with my TA tub construction. I'm using original TA doors that are in good condition, but not original to this car, although that may not be relevant to the work. My doors fit before I put on the front cross timber, and now they don't. One step forward and two steps back, yet again.
1937 TA 1271
Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification
"I'm using original TA doors that are in good condition, but not original to this car, although that may not be relevant to the work. My doors fit before I put on the front cross timber, and now they don't."
Rob,
I'm guessing this is why in TCF [TC's Forever], he suggests using the doors as a guide before fixing the hinge and latch pillar. I think more importantly the Latch Pillar as the Hinge Pillar is more or less fixed at 90 degrees to the frame.
At that point the Rocker Rail [below the door] and the Latch Pillar can be fitted to match the bottom and front of the door. leaving what I recall as 1/4" clearance all around. [I'll double check that]
He suggests that the hinge pins can be removed and an appropriately sized long rod can be put through both hinges for correct alignment of upper and lower hinge.
He also suggests that adding shims to the center tub frame mount can "open-up" the door opening, and adding shims to the front mount can close up the opening. He stresses the importance of the correct meeting of the top front of the door with the area at the scuttle. For the correct "look/flow" of the body lines.
I just realized you're referring to the Front Cross Rail? [# 15 on FTFU] I like their site as it seems they use the "correct" names for timber parts as others don't. If that is the part that messed up the doors I'm guessing it opened up the Latch Pillar too much?
What's the length of your front cross rail? [Wait, just remembered you're doing a TA, so I'm sure that's different than my TC] But I'll look and see if TCF discusses that fit.
Did you use glue/adhesive on your joints? It seems this is discouraged as reportedly fixing them with glue can cause the timbers to split due to frame flex affecting the tub structure. Before assembly I've coated all of my timbers with West System clear epoxy [should last forever] and I've been temped to use "G-Flex" a West System epoxy adhesive product that has engineered flexibility. I may try a test piece to see just how much flexibility there is.
I recently made the [rash?] decision to replace all of my wood, where I was initially trying to re-use the Elbows, Rear Top Side Rails and the Wing Blocks.
Next up for me is welding up some extra P.O. holes in the Side Curtain Pan and modifying the Side Curtain Box Sides to fit my angle iron frame modification.
From there to the sides, forward to the hinge timber but at that point I'll need to get the doors in shape.
One step at a time.
Robj
Rob,
I'm guessing this is why in TCF [TC's Forever], he suggests using the doors as a guide before fixing the hinge and latch pillar. I think more importantly the Latch Pillar as the Hinge Pillar is more or less fixed at 90 degrees to the frame.
At that point the Rocker Rail [below the door] and the Latch Pillar can be fitted to match the bottom and front of the door. leaving what I recall as 1/4" clearance all around. [I'll double check that]
He suggests that the hinge pins can be removed and an appropriately sized long rod can be put through both hinges for correct alignment of upper and lower hinge.
He also suggests that adding shims to the center tub frame mount can "open-up" the door opening, and adding shims to the front mount can close up the opening. He stresses the importance of the correct meeting of the top front of the door with the area at the scuttle. For the correct "look/flow" of the body lines.
I just realized you're referring to the Front Cross Rail? [# 15 on FTFU] I like their site as it seems they use the "correct" names for timber parts as others don't. If that is the part that messed up the doors I'm guessing it opened up the Latch Pillar too much?
What's the length of your front cross rail? [Wait, just remembered you're doing a TA, so I'm sure that's different than my TC] But I'll look and see if TCF discusses that fit.
Did you use glue/adhesive on your joints? It seems this is discouraged as reportedly fixing them with glue can cause the timbers to split due to frame flex affecting the tub structure. Before assembly I've coated all of my timbers with West System clear epoxy [should last forever] and I've been temped to use "G-Flex" a West System epoxy adhesive product that has engineered flexibility. I may try a test piece to see just how much flexibility there is.
I recently made the [rash?] decision to replace all of my wood, where I was initially trying to re-use the Elbows, Rear Top Side Rails and the Wing Blocks.
Next up for me is welding up some extra P.O. holes in the Side Curtain Pan and modifying the Side Curtain Box Sides to fit my angle iron frame modification.
From there to the sides, forward to the hinge timber but at that point I'll need to get the doors in shape.
One step at a time.
Robj
Last edited by robj on Mon Mar 25, 2024 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Steve Simmons
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Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification
I haven't done any of the mods Mike discusses, mainly because I've never had the desire to take a running car to bits. But I would say that if he recommends the modifications, and you plan to really drive the car, then I would seriously consider whatever he has to say. He has more miles on his TC than anyone I've ever heard of. Far north of 500,000 miles!
Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification
I agree Steve,
I'm also not sure I had the "desire " to disassemble my TC, I'm more of an "unwilling" but enthusiastic participant.
In addition to the Tub Frame modification I think I'm also going to do the Door Frame reinforcement and the Scuttle reinforcement. All weak areas and the reinforcements make sense to me. And they're invisible to the casual observer. I do have to say a scaled drawing of the Scuttle reinforcement would have been a nice addition to the second book.
Back to the Tub reinforcement. As I had mentioned, this requires some modification to the Box Sides. The lower outer edge needs to be relieved to fit flush with the outer edge of the angle iron upright, and the bottom, [on mine] needed to be relieved slightly for the weld in bottom of the corner of the angle.
The metal on the outside of the angle was relieved at a 45, so the welds could be ground flush, in order for the backboard to fit tight to the angle.
In addition the usual fitting of the front face needs to be done on the Box side to achieve the proper 90 degrees at the front edge.
The off side went well but I really struggled on the near side. Although everything measured the same I didn't have the proper angle on that side for the backboard. For some reason I didn't realize it at the time and when making the near side Box Side fit, I got the angle all wrong.
What I came to realize was the bottom of the cross angle on that side needed to go further to the rear which then gave the correct angle. Quick to type but consumed about 10 hours work time.
Note to self, measure 50 times not 40, then cut once!
A new right hand box side is ordered.
An additional modification to the box side is necessary. Due to the thickness of the angle there's a space between the top rear of the box side and the Back Board. A strip will be cut and epoxied to the rear of the box side. One good thing, the mis-cut box side gives me the exact piece I need to rip the necessary strip.
Not exactly plug and play, but I think a worthwhile mod none the less.
robj
I'm also not sure I had the "desire " to disassemble my TC, I'm more of an "unwilling" but enthusiastic participant.
In addition to the Tub Frame modification I think I'm also going to do the Door Frame reinforcement and the Scuttle reinforcement. All weak areas and the reinforcements make sense to me. And they're invisible to the casual observer. I do have to say a scaled drawing of the Scuttle reinforcement would have been a nice addition to the second book.
Back to the Tub reinforcement. As I had mentioned, this requires some modification to the Box Sides. The lower outer edge needs to be relieved to fit flush with the outer edge of the angle iron upright, and the bottom, [on mine] needed to be relieved slightly for the weld in bottom of the corner of the angle.
The metal on the outside of the angle was relieved at a 45, so the welds could be ground flush, in order for the backboard to fit tight to the angle.
In addition the usual fitting of the front face needs to be done on the Box side to achieve the proper 90 degrees at the front edge.
Note to self, measure 50 times not 40, then cut once!
A new right hand box side is ordered.
An additional modification to the box side is necessary. Due to the thickness of the angle there's a space between the top rear of the box side and the Back Board. A strip will be cut and epoxied to the rear of the box side. One good thing, the mis-cut box side gives me the exact piece I need to rip the necessary strip.
robj
Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification
More tub mods.
I decided to go against the grain and rather than using nails for the curtain box metal I went with #4 flathead SS screws. I did find some really nice 3/4" stainless ring shank nails on McMaster-Carr, but there is something to be said about being able to take something back apart without damage. [A throw back from boat work]
For the tin, I modified a sheet metal hole punch by putting a counter-sink bevel on the die part. I didn't use it to punch the holes, [they were drilled] but to put a counter sink in the metal so the screws would lie flush. Also used a small counter sink to put a bevel in the wood at the screw hole. Worked out pretty well.
Still waiting on the right side box side, so I epoxy coated the remaining timbers.
One step at a time,
robj
I decided to go against the grain and rather than using nails for the curtain box metal I went with #4 flathead SS screws. I did find some really nice 3/4" stainless ring shank nails on McMaster-Carr, but there is something to be said about being able to take something back apart without damage. [A throw back from boat work]
One step at a time,
robj
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cdrolshagen
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Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification
Hi
never seen Philipps Srews on T-Type body
cheers Carl
never seen Philipps Srews on T-Type body
cheers Carl
Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification
Robj-
Attempting to encapsulate the wood with epoxy or some other non permeable sealant has certainly been tried before. Wooden boats use that strategy because they must. Morgan started using Cuprinol preservative in 1986, which allows the wood to breathe. Probably about as good a comprimise as you will get in a car that gets used. see a morgan talk discussion -- https://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthreads.p ... ype/thread
I have always had good luck with outdoor wood projects using clear copper products like this https://www.acehardware.com/departments ... lsrc=aw.ds
that protect against rot, fungus and bugs. Copper Green formulations (copper napthalate) are a builder's standard termite protection for wood up against concrete foundations near dirt. Of course it also stains the wood dark green.
Attempting to encapsulate the wood with epoxy or some other non permeable sealant has certainly been tried before. Wooden boats use that strategy because they must. Morgan started using Cuprinol preservative in 1986, which allows the wood to breathe. Probably about as good a comprimise as you will get in a car that gets used. see a morgan talk discussion -- https://www.talkmorgan.com/ubbthreads.p ... ype/thread
I have always had good luck with outdoor wood projects using clear copper products like this https://www.acehardware.com/departments ... lsrc=aw.ds
that protect against rot, fungus and bugs. Copper Green formulations (copper napthalate) are a builder's standard termite protection for wood up against concrete foundations near dirt. Of course it also stains the wood dark green.
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Steve Simmons
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Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification
I haven't tried it on body wood, but I coated my floorboards with POR15 and the durability has been incredible. It took a couple coats to get it really soaked in, as the stuff is really thin so it goes right into the grain like a sponge. It does have good flexibility so I suspect it would work well on the body, but again I haven't tried it and there may be something I'm not thinking of. I can say that the surface of my floorboards is like iron as far as trying to scratch them.
Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification and Tub Build
"Hi
never seen Philipps Srews on T-Type body
cheers Carl"
Ha, Carl I agree. However, these will be covered or not visible unless crawling under the car. All the other screws are slotted.
Of course now I'll be searching out #4 S.S. slotted screws. If I recall I looked for them in McMaster-Carr and one boat supplier I've used in the past and all that was available were Phillips. I also recall feeling a little guilty about using them. One, because they were Phillips and two, they weren't nails... I think I figured as long as I'm using the wrong fastener, [screws not nails], I may as well double down on "screwing up"!
Some additional progress has been made but I screwed up the angle on the right box side and had to redo it. The frame leg on the right side of the Modification part wasn't far enough to the rear which changed the angle of the back board slightly.
It's a little fiddly making them work with the Tub Frame Modification. Lots of fitting to be done. And of course with my OCD I'm trying to work within a half a pencil line...
robj
Edit: I did find #4 SS slotted screws on McMaster-Carr. I guess I didn't look hard enough the first time. A box is ordered.
never seen Philipps Srews on T-Type body
cheers Carl"
Ha, Carl I agree. However, these will be covered or not visible unless crawling under the car. All the other screws are slotted.
Of course now I'll be searching out #4 S.S. slotted screws. If I recall I looked for them in McMaster-Carr and one boat supplier I've used in the past and all that was available were Phillips. I also recall feeling a little guilty about using them. One, because they were Phillips and two, they weren't nails... I think I figured as long as I'm using the wrong fastener, [screws not nails], I may as well double down on "screwing up"!
Some additional progress has been made but I screwed up the angle on the right box side and had to redo it. The frame leg on the right side of the Modification part wasn't far enough to the rear which changed the angle of the back board slightly.
It's a little fiddly making them work with the Tub Frame Modification. Lots of fitting to be done. And of course with my OCD I'm trying to work within a half a pencil line...
robj
Edit: I did find #4 SS slotted screws on McMaster-Carr. I guess I didn't look hard enough the first time. A box is ordered.
Last edited by robj on Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification
A quick question as I proceed with more timber work.
Is the top of the rear metal panel let into the top of the Top Back Rail? Mine was not and I'm sure I saw it mentioned somewhere.
It would make sense as it would allow the Hood Tack Strip to lie flat.
That being said, is the top of Rear Quarter Panel also let into the Rear Top Side Rail, at least to the point where the rear quarter folds over the Top Side Rail?
In TCF the top of the rear panel is folded over by 1/2". Should the curved portion of the top panel also be trimmed to 1/2"?
Thanks,
robj
Is the top of the rear metal panel let into the top of the Top Back Rail? Mine was not and I'm sure I saw it mentioned somewhere.
It would make sense as it would allow the Hood Tack Strip to lie flat.
Thanks,
robj
Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification and Tub Build
"Attempting to encapsulate the wood with epoxy or some other non permeable sealant has certainly been tried before. "
I'm not sure "attempting" quite covers it. Done correctly epoxy coating makes wood pretty much immune to expansion and contraction due to moisture content. The expansion and contraction is what "cracks" other finishes allowing moisture to penetrate the wood. All paints attempt to seal the wood but eventually fail.
I restored a 1970 sailboat 15 years ago, coating all the wood trim with epoxy and marine varnish. For the most part it looks like It did the day it was done.. The downside to epoxy encapsulation is it has low UV protection. That being said, I left an easy to sand and re-coat part without the UV protection of varnish. Although it faded and had a dull finish, the epoxy coating has yet to break down after some years of UV exposure. Given the timbers on a TC are for the most part not exposed to UV, not a problem.
And on the plus side, it can be coated with primer and painted like it's metal.
If I was not going with a hard finish I considered Boiled Linseed Oil. It never hardens and can be recoated without sanding.
Five years ago I did a rear seat delete on a Mini Cooper using regular plywood and epoxy with primer, body paint, and clear. Turned out pretty decent. [both lids are plain plywood]
It was actually a difficult decision to epoxy or treat with linseed oil. For this job I went with encapsulate given the painting requirements.
robj
I'm not sure "attempting" quite covers it. Done correctly epoxy coating makes wood pretty much immune to expansion and contraction due to moisture content. The expansion and contraction is what "cracks" other finishes allowing moisture to penetrate the wood. All paints attempt to seal the wood but eventually fail.
I restored a 1970 sailboat 15 years ago, coating all the wood trim with epoxy and marine varnish. For the most part it looks like It did the day it was done.. The downside to epoxy encapsulation is it has low UV protection. That being said, I left an easy to sand and re-coat part without the UV protection of varnish. Although it faded and had a dull finish, the epoxy coating has yet to break down after some years of UV exposure. Given the timbers on a TC are for the most part not exposed to UV, not a problem.
And on the plus side, it can be coated with primer and painted like it's metal.
If I was not going with a hard finish I considered Boiled Linseed Oil. It never hardens and can be recoated without sanding.
Five years ago I did a rear seat delete on a Mini Cooper using regular plywood and epoxy with primer, body paint, and clear. Turned out pretty decent. [both lids are plain plywood]
robj
Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification and Tub Build
I am just speaking of encapsulation of wood from what I have seen and what others have said over the years. On the T-types specifically, a common failure point for such strategy is the main wood structural rail that runs along the chassis. At some point the wood rail "coating" gets roughed up by vibration/flexing against the steel chassis, and allows moisture to get in the wood. The wood section ends up rotting from within the otherwise encapsulated wood. Water gets in and spreads, and has no way of drying except for the opening where the water got in- and that is still wet.
That is why I posted the link to the Morgan discussion where they talk about Cuprinol being used by the Morgan Factory since 1986, and the link also discussed the "rot from within" problem with encapsulation once again.
On the other hand, epoxy coating inside of the fuel tank is a great idea.
That is why I posted the link to the Morgan discussion where they talk about Cuprinol being used by the Morgan Factory since 1986, and the link also discussed the "rot from within" problem with encapsulation once again.
On the other hand, epoxy coating inside of the fuel tank is a great idea.
Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification and Tub Build
Rob
If I may suggest, before you go further, is to support the car under all four wheel hubs. My understanding is it is important that the car is sitting on its suspension while rebuilding the body tub.
I am going through a similar TC experience as you. Unfortunately my project has stalled due to an unforeseen house project.
If I may suggest, before you go further, is to support the car under all four wheel hubs. My understanding is it is important that the car is sitting on its suspension while rebuilding the body tub.
I am going through a similar TC experience as you. Unfortunately my project has stalled due to an unforeseen house project.
Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification and Tub Build
To answer your question
The panels are not "let in" on the wood. They sit on top as you have shown.
The panels are not "let in" on the wood. They sit on top as you have shown.
Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification and Tub Build
"At some point the wood rail "coating" gets roughed up by vibration/flexing against the steel chassis, and allows moisture to get in the wood. The wood section ends up rotting from within the otherwise encapsulated wood. Water gets in and spreads, and has no way of drying except for the opening where the water got in- and that is still wet."
Duncan,
Thanks for the clarification on that. I'm pondering how to prevent. that from occurring. Maybe an extra coat or 2 of epoxy then painting the inside of that area with POR-15 which is reportedly tough as nails. I'm trying to keep "the next guy in mind' throughout the build. Especially attempting to do everything as original as possible, at least where it can be seen or easily undone.
On the other hand, at 72, by the time any of that occurs I'm pretty sure it won't be an issue I'll have to deal with.
But again, thank you for bringing that up.
robj
Duncan,
Thanks for the clarification on that. I'm pondering how to prevent. that from occurring. Maybe an extra coat or 2 of epoxy then painting the inside of that area with POR-15 which is reportedly tough as nails. I'm trying to keep "the next guy in mind' throughout the build. Especially attempting to do everything as original as possible, at least where it can be seen or easily undone.
On the other hand, at 72, by the time any of that occurs I'm pretty sure it won't be an issue I'll have to deal with.
But again, thank you for bringing that up.
robj
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Steve Simmons
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Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification and Tub Build
I can report that POR15 is indeed tough as nails. But you have to follow the instructions religiously or it will fail in spectacular fashion. For wood, I didn't do anything special other than make sure there was absolutely no oil or other contaminants in the grain before painting. I started with brand new wood so that was easy. If you put POR15 over oil or dirt, it will come off in sheets. Applied to a clean, dry surface it's pretty much permanent.
Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification and Tub Build
Steve,
And just try to get it off you hands... One of the few things I always wear gloves for.
robj
And just try to get it off you hands... One of the few things I always wear gloves for.
robj
Re: TC Forever More Tub Frame Modification and Tub Build
Some progress,
Finally got the Tub Frame Modification, the backboard at the correct angle and level and the curtain box sides fitted. Lots and lots of measuring.
Then got the Diff Cover and Diff Ramp cut and installed.
As others have found The bolt holes in the Rear Deck Rail Front, [Moss Motors] don't line up with the Bulls Horn. Well, one did and 1 almost did. Flipped it over and still no luck so I filled the holes and will drill new ones. In sort of defense Moss Motors, seems this is pretty common no matter where the piece is bought.
Next was fitting up the Main side Rail. The information Merv put in a post a few years ago, [2016?] was very helpful.
Thanks, Merv!
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=718&p=3690&hilit=bo ... ions#p3690
In Merv's reply on the prior post seems he said 3 through bolts were for the running board bolts but looking at my old timber it looks like the 2 rear bolts are through the timber alone, not the frame and the forward most running board bolt goes through the slotted hold in the frame. At least that's what it looks like to me...
Attempting to get the through holes staring and level
If this is incorrect, please let me know.
robj
Finally got the Tub Frame Modification, the backboard at the correct angle and level and the curtain box sides fitted. Lots and lots of measuring.
Next was fitting up the Main side Rail. The information Merv put in a post a few years ago, [2016?] was very helpful.
Thanks, Merv!
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=718&p=3690&hilit=bo ... ions#p3690
In Merv's reply on the prior post seems he said 3 through bolts were for the running board bolts but looking at my old timber it looks like the 2 rear bolts are through the timber alone, not the frame and the forward most running board bolt goes through the slotted hold in the frame. At least that's what it looks like to me...
robj